I was recently back on the popular education podcast “(Dis)course or Dat Course” alongside S. Smug Snidely, the celebrity dean of Paymore U’s school of education. We were on with host Ima Fuller-Schlitz, social media stalwart and author of Love, Hate, Relate: The Case for Schools That Put Feelings First, to discuss what recent changes in federal graduate school lending mean for teachers and ed schools. I found the exchange pretty illuminating and thought it worth sharing the transcript.

Ima Fuller-Schlitz: Last year, in their One Big Ugly Bill, Republicans radically rewrote the rules for federal student loans. Dr. Snidely, as one of the nation’s foremost education authorities, can you explain what happened?

Dr. Smug Snidely: I’ll tell you what happened, Ima: MAGA Republicans value your pet’s vet more than your child’s teacher. Last year, they cut taxes for the mega-rich. To help pay for that, they took an axe to the federal student loan program and imposed draconian new limits on federal borrowing. With a handful of exceptions for “professional training,” students can now borrow no more than $20,500 a year for graduate school. You heard me right—these people don’t think teachers are professionals!

Fuller-Schlitz: Unconscionable. What does this mean for your students?

Snidely: Let me tell you about one student, a wonderful teacher who’s earning a master’s degree in culturally responsive playground management. This inspiring young lady entered our online program after three years in the classroom. She only makes $55,000 a year. Now, you tell me, how is she supposed to afford our $70,000-a-year, two-year playground management program?

Dr. Rick Hess: If she’s earning $55,000, does it really make sense for her to pay $140,000 for a degree? I mean, how much will she earn after she finishes?

Snidely: Ima, you see what we’re dealing with here. Look, Mr. Hess, not everything can be reduced to dollars and cents. She dreams of making playgrounds more culturally responsive. You can’t put a price tag on that.

Hess: All I’m saying is it doesn’t make sense to take loans you can’t repay. I mean, does she even need this credential?

Fuller-Schlitz: Wha—. . .? Are you . . . ? Mr. Hess, that is just such a rude question. You wouldn’t dare ask such a thing if she were pursuing a degree in something like medicine or engineering.

Hess: Well, no, because—

Snidely: Until last year, a student like this could borrow vast sums through Grad PLUS, and everyone was happy. They borrowed what they wanted, we charged what we could, and we worried about the details later. As our marketers have so aptly put it: “THEIR money. OUR credential. YOUR future.”

Hess: That’s the slogan, huh?

Snidely: Perhaps you need to spend a bit more time with your Bourdieu, Dewey, and Freire, sir, to grasp all that a degree in education can offer. But I suppose you’re too busy cheering MAGA Republicans for dashing the dreams of millions upon millions of potential marks . . . er, makers . . . difference-makers!

Hess: But will those students earn enough to repay their loans?

Fuller-Schlitz: I still don’t see why that should matter.

Snidely: Exactly right. You’re worrying about the wrong things, Mr. Hess. Here’s what you should worry about. The Big Ugly Bill creates higher caps for select “professions.” Future doctors, dentists, and lawyers can borrow $50,000. But when it comes to educators who yearn to be playground supervisors or assistant principals? Then it’s suddenly, “Sorry, no money for you.” That’s because Republicans like lawyers and doctors and hate educators. Simple as that.

Hess: Or maybe it’s because borrowers attending medical or dental school have a decent shot at repaying bigger loans. You know, the whole “professional” thing isn’t actually a value judgment; it’s an old label primarily meant to distinguish credentials that have a big pay-off from those that don’t. Educators who borrow $50,000 a year risk being buried in debt. If they can’t pay, taxpayers get stuck with the bill. The limit protects everyone from programs that have been shaking students down.

Snidely: Balderdash. Education requires rigorous preparation. The American Association of Colleges for Teacher Education put it best: “Limiting access to federal loans for these programs does not reduce their costs but merely shifts the burden onto students who are already weighing whether they can afford to enter the profession at all.”

Fuller-Schlitz: Authoritative wisdom, Dr. Snidely.

Snidely: Paymore U is proud to enroll many affluent students who, sure, maybe didn’t do so well in college, but now they really want a graduate degree and have the parents with big checks to prove it. Everyone should have that opportunity. Do we want to be the kind of country that bars the schoolhouse door against college graduates who seek to purchase expensive credentials? I know where my institution stands in that fight.

Fuller-Schlitz: I have little doubt your foresight will be rewarded. How will you adjust to these barbaric cuts?

Snidely: We’ll be forced to focus more intently on affluent students seeking to launder their privilege. This is a critical part of what we do. But we’ve so much more to offer. Unfortunately, there’s just no way we at Paymore can make these new loan limits work.

Hess: Maybe you could cut tuition.

Snidely: You almost made me spit out my lime-infused mineral water. Are you serious, man? A single online course requires a syllabus, 10 or 20 pages of assigned reading every week, an AI project, AI-enabled class discussions, and a final five-page student essay. And that’s for each and every course, mind you. Not to mention, our students expect a resource-intensive level of care. Just in the last year, we’ve added 24/7 virtual care, including teletherapy, online movement therapy, and mindfulness retreats. Do you think that all costs nothing? Indeed, we’ve been forced to add a modest fee to fund a financial literacy hub that promotes financial wellness.

Hess: Irony alert.

Fuller-Schlitz: I don’t know what you’re talking about, but let’s keep it civil.

Snidely: Thank you, Ima. As I was saying, that’s just for our online students. On campus, we’ve added relaxation pods, massage chairs, and outdoor therapy sessions; doubled our number of “Puppy De-Stress” days; and retrofitted our library as a day spa with a delightful new thalassotherapy pool. Our students need and demand these things. There is just no possible way to cut tuition and still give them this rich, essential academic experience.

Hess: But do eight online courses in playground management need to cost more than the $20,500 annual loan limit? Could you trim some frills and ask students to toughen up?

Snidely: Spoken like a true fascist.

Fuller-Schlitz: So, it’s fine to spend billions on Trump’s illegal wars but not to educate future teachers? Is that what you’re saying?

Hess: Look, it wasn’t so long ago that President Biden tried to “forgive” half a trillion dollars in student debt. He said borrowers regretted those loans, that more than a few described their degree programs as overpriced scams. Most of that money was for graduate school, much of it for educators. Isn’t that a sign that we need to rein in tuition?

Snidely: This is about respect for our teachers, darn it! What better way to show teachers respect than by enabling them to borrow a lot of money?! It’s good for their self-esteem, for America, and for Paymore’s bottom line.

Fuller-Schlitz: Dr. Snidely, I couldn’t have said it better myself. And I won’t have to, because that’s all the time we have today. You’ve been listening to (Dis)course or Dat Course, and you know me, Ima Fuller-Schlitz.

Frederick Hess is an executive editor of Education Next and the author of the blog “Old School with Rick Hess.”